Years ago as a junior high wrestler I was so stressed for every match that I under-performed every time. Actually, I under-performed significantly. I wish I could tell you what changed but by high school I had at least accepted stress as part of the territory. Since then I am not distracted by stress when performing physical activities. Not many insights here but for me stress is not much of a factor mountain biking.
John, yes "accepting stress as part of the territory" certainly seems like it was the change that made a difference for you in high school.
1. Do you sometimes compete now in MTB races or otherwise perform in front of others?
2. Do you sometimes get frustrated/upset when you're practicing or stuck on a skills plateau?
3. Your comments indicate that you're aware of the negative aspects of stress on performance. Are you interested in learning more about how to harness the positive aspects?
I do compete in a lot of mountain bike races, and I speak internationally, so yes, I perform in front of others. I am never bothered by stress in those situations. In fact, I look forward to performing and the only time I am restless is in the 15 minutes before something starts because I am so eager to get going. I rarely get frustrated during formal practice. I occasionally get frustrated when I session something on the trail and I just can't get it right, but never to the point of despair. I am a lifelong learner, and I always want to learn more. So, I will watch what you are putting out there but I can't prioritize the time to part of anything formal right now. Thanks.
This is a huge amount of physiology/psychology to cover at one gulp!
I'd suggest treating the basic physiology (how the body works) before adding the complications of psychology (how we screw up how the body works).
Then ponder how we tend to over-simplify all such events by herding them into categories and making them fit a preferred picture. If we can honor the synergistic interactions involved ("organic"?), we can appreciate the interactions and complexities of our endeavors.
Basically........it takes "stress" (things working in motion) for anything to move. Otherwise you're "resting".
"Bad Stress" ("Distress"-Selye) is when the parts are working inefficiently and not getting the job done with minimal deterioration.
"Good Stress" ("Eustress" - Selye) is when the machine is working as smoothly as it can..........conserving energy as much as possible and keeping wear to a minimum.
Such functions are managed and controlled by electrical impulses and chemicals and are partly autonomic........they happen without conscious input. However we are learning more and more that the brain ("mind") has greater input than previously suspected, so that's where the psychology intrudes. Unfortunately our conscious input is often screwed up so we prevent our systems from functioning efficiently. We have invented the art and craft of psychotherapy to deal with this........along with a slew of medications, therapists, theories and interventions to join the dance.
The original, basic, idea was that, when presented with a voluntary, enjoyable, challenge in the great outdoors, all this would come together naturally and........Voila..........Mountain Biking!
When we are developing a new skill we need to learn the mechanics of the feature, our bike, our body (how much pedal force to use etc.) and some basic physics (like gravity). What we are looking for here is not to eradicate any kind of "stress", but to find an optimum, Goldilocks, mix (not too hot, not too cold).
If our mental processes are not ready for the challenge, we need to give them some consideration too. There may be a fly in the ointment or just some new interpersonal skills that need honing.
However, we need to watch that we give the amazing natural ingredients a chance to work their magic, with the minimum of interference from the stern guardian Out There............
Rusty, I'll consider your point about a Goldilocks approach to stress as I dig deeper into McGonigal's Upside of Stress book and Crum's research paper. My first inclination, however, is that it's not quite right because fear-based stress evidently has some neurobiological elements that are quite different from challenge-based stress. In other words, there doesn't seem to be a continuum between the two, although maybe there is a duration component to both.
You wrote:
"However, we need to watch that we give the amazing natural ingredients a chance to work their magic, with the minimum of interference from the stern guardian Out There............"
Timothy Gallwey would give you a big thumbs-up on that sentence!
I'm currently of the understanding that the area of the brain where the stern guardian mostly hangs out (pre-frontal cortex) is also home to the wise guardian. They evidently both have their fingers on various neurochemical triggers that can interfere in helpful and not-so-helpful ways.
"Fear-Based Stress" and "Challenge Stress". Do these equate to Selye's original "Distress" and "Eustress"?
If so, then they do, by definition, come from the same "stress response":.........."any response of the body to demands made upon it".
And they differ only in how well they serve the body and how severely they may overload the body's responses..........a little arousal may give you more energy to face a challenge, whereas too much arousal will lead to degenerative disease.
I don't know if contemporary psychoneurologists have reinvented Selye's work, but he may still be a good basic foundation........
Yes.
There has been dramatic new work done in "understanding" the pre-frontal cortex and all its bits and pieces. I tried to work Sapolsky's 'Behave', but bogged down a bit in Ion Channels and Amygdala.
The theme seemed to be, however, that we have a surprising amount of input into our autonomic reflexes.........as you say, for better or worse.
We can (and do) create many of our own problems, influenced (often unwittingly) by societal pressures.
That's why I suspect our best role may be to deemphasize the obfuscation of a biological system that works best (as Hunter--Gatherers?) relating more simply with the environment.
But you are developing a coaching system.
In some ways it doesn't matter exactly what such a tool is based on -- so long as it works well, with no ill effect to its clients. It's probably more important that the system is internally consistent and user-friendly.
"And they differ only in how well they serve the body and how severely they may overload the body's responses..........a little arousal may give you more energy to face a challenge, whereas too much arousal will lead to degenerative disease."
That's not quite right, according to what I've been reading. It has to do with the ratio of the cortisol and DHEA hormones released by the adrenal glands during stress. I'll report more about this in Part 2.
You wrote:
"That's why I suspect our best role may be to deemphasize the obfuscation of a biological system that works best (as Hunter--Gatherers?) relating more simply with the environment. But you are developing a coaching system."
I think it might be more accurate to say that our best role is to become more skilled at how to "deemphasize the obfuscation of a biological system." As adults, our conscious minds are very good at obfuscation!
Lots to think about there Griff! Or should we call you Grumpy Grandpa Griff? :)
I suffer quite badly from stress both professionally and personally. Professionally I have learnt to feed off it and use it to help me perform well. I've had mentoring roles with some younger staff members and it is amazing how many of them were embaressed or stressed about being stressed and how relived they were when I shared my feelings with them. My standard line - if you're not stressed you don't care so why are you even here?
Personally I'm not so efficient. I've entered a few social MTB races with the intention of 'challenging myself' and although I generally enjoy the event, I often end up picking up a chronic injury as part of the preperation or event. And as the event approaches I get increasing nervous about letting myself down or showing myself up, to the point of broken sleep and nightmares. A few years ago I was trying to get fit enough to tackle a 4 day stage event in Tasmania called 'Wildside' and my wife woke me up one night as I was whimpering and pedalling my legs in my sleep. In my dream I was sprinting down a lane trying to escape a black dog that was shadowing me in the undergrowth.
I also generally only ride with close mates or alone and rarely join a social ride with people I don't know. And I struggle to attempt any skills that I am not very proficient at in front of anyone - I'm known to have a wide repertoire of trackstand variants but few other talents.
One other thing to consider about stress in general is whether it is self-imposed or put upon you. There is research known as the 'Whitehall Study' that found that stress amongst senior civil service management involved in significant decision making was much less than the underlings actually doing the work. One theory is that the stress response is due to a lack of control when a policy is passed down to you. Obviously MTB is largely the first one, but if you eg enter an event because you think you ought to it may lead to a different stress result than if you really want to.
Anyway, I've gone on too long. I like the idea of reframing stress and will add that book to the list - until then I look forward to hearing what you discover. And that bike rodeo looks like it was a heap of fun for everyone!
Dogtank, thanks for sharing those stress-related struggles. You're the perfect test case for what we're talking about!
1. You're barking (hah) up the right tree when you link stress to caring, but I think it's the fear-based 'caring' for ourselves/self-image that usually triggers the problematic type of stress. True caring for others (AKA "tend-and-befriend" caring) or caring about a mission/cause evidently doesn't do that.
2. Thanks for mentioning the Whitehall Study - still ongoing:
The "Explanations and implications" section of that Wikipedia page is super interesting. Lack of control is indeed a factor but it's complicated.
3. You wrote:
"I struggle to attempt any skills that I am not very proficient at in front of anyone - I'm known to have a wide repertoire of trackstand variants but few other talents."
Hah! Doing a trackstand for the Cub Scouts was my first demo skill, as I'm likewise confident with it. I showed them a progression, ending with a respectable one-handed trackstand. I also demonstrated no-handed figure 8s, a tuck no-hander, a high nose pivot, and a slow fakie, as I'm confident with those as well. I forced myself to do a slow wheelie (not confident) but I framed it as a work in progress, part of my overall speech about the power of saying "not yet" when learning something new and still sucking. I gave myself 3 attempts. The first two ended quickly but I managed a respectable 15 yards on the final attempt which generated a round of cheering.
4. I've found lately that introducing myself as "grumpy grandpa Griff" is a great ice-breaker no matter what the situation.
Years ago as a junior high wrestler I was so stressed for every match that I under-performed every time. Actually, I under-performed significantly. I wish I could tell you what changed but by high school I had at least accepted stress as part of the territory. Since then I am not distracted by stress when performing physical activities. Not many insights here but for me stress is not much of a factor mountain biking.
John, yes "accepting stress as part of the territory" certainly seems like it was the change that made a difference for you in high school.
1. Do you sometimes compete now in MTB races or otherwise perform in front of others?
2. Do you sometimes get frustrated/upset when you're practicing or stuck on a skills plateau?
3. Your comments indicate that you're aware of the negative aspects of stress on performance. Are you interested in learning more about how to harness the positive aspects?
I do compete in a lot of mountain bike races, and I speak internationally, so yes, I perform in front of others. I am never bothered by stress in those situations. In fact, I look forward to performing and the only time I am restless is in the 15 minutes before something starts because I am so eager to get going. I rarely get frustrated during formal practice. I occasionally get frustrated when I session something on the trail and I just can't get it right, but never to the point of despair. I am a lifelong learner, and I always want to learn more. So, I will watch what you are putting out there but I can't prioritize the time to part of anything formal right now. Thanks.
Thanks for the detailed response, John.
This is a huge amount of physiology/psychology to cover at one gulp!
I'd suggest treating the basic physiology (how the body works) before adding the complications of psychology (how we screw up how the body works).
Then ponder how we tend to over-simplify all such events by herding them into categories and making them fit a preferred picture. If we can honor the synergistic interactions involved ("organic"?), we can appreciate the interactions and complexities of our endeavors.
Basically........it takes "stress" (things working in motion) for anything to move. Otherwise you're "resting".
"Bad Stress" ("Distress"-Selye) is when the parts are working inefficiently and not getting the job done with minimal deterioration.
"Good Stress" ("Eustress" - Selye) is when the machine is working as smoothly as it can..........conserving energy as much as possible and keeping wear to a minimum.
Such functions are managed and controlled by electrical impulses and chemicals and are partly autonomic........they happen without conscious input. However we are learning more and more that the brain ("mind") has greater input than previously suspected, so that's where the psychology intrudes. Unfortunately our conscious input is often screwed up so we prevent our systems from functioning efficiently. We have invented the art and craft of psychotherapy to deal with this........along with a slew of medications, therapists, theories and interventions to join the dance.
The original, basic, idea was that, when presented with a voluntary, enjoyable, challenge in the great outdoors, all this would come together naturally and........Voila..........Mountain Biking!
When we are developing a new skill we need to learn the mechanics of the feature, our bike, our body (how much pedal force to use etc.) and some basic physics (like gravity). What we are looking for here is not to eradicate any kind of "stress", but to find an optimum, Goldilocks, mix (not too hot, not too cold).
If our mental processes are not ready for the challenge, we need to give them some consideration too. There may be a fly in the ointment or just some new interpersonal skills that need honing.
However, we need to watch that we give the amazing natural ingredients a chance to work their magic, with the minimum of interference from the stern guardian Out There............
Rusty, I'll consider your point about a Goldilocks approach to stress as I dig deeper into McGonigal's Upside of Stress book and Crum's research paper. My first inclination, however, is that it's not quite right because fear-based stress evidently has some neurobiological elements that are quite different from challenge-based stress. In other words, there doesn't seem to be a continuum between the two, although maybe there is a duration component to both.
You wrote:
"However, we need to watch that we give the amazing natural ingredients a chance to work their magic, with the minimum of interference from the stern guardian Out There............"
Timothy Gallwey would give you a big thumbs-up on that sentence!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Gallwey
I'm currently of the understanding that the area of the brain where the stern guardian mostly hangs out (pre-frontal cortex) is also home to the wise guardian. They evidently both have their fingers on various neurochemical triggers that can interfere in helpful and not-so-helpful ways.
"Fear-Based Stress" and "Challenge Stress". Do these equate to Selye's original "Distress" and "Eustress"?
If so, then they do, by definition, come from the same "stress response":.........."any response of the body to demands made upon it".
And they differ only in how well they serve the body and how severely they may overload the body's responses..........a little arousal may give you more energy to face a challenge, whereas too much arousal will lead to degenerative disease.
I don't know if contemporary psychoneurologists have reinvented Selye's work, but he may still be a good basic foundation........
Yes.
There has been dramatic new work done in "understanding" the pre-frontal cortex and all its bits and pieces. I tried to work Sapolsky's 'Behave', but bogged down a bit in Ion Channels and Amygdala.
The theme seemed to be, however, that we have a surprising amount of input into our autonomic reflexes.........as you say, for better or worse.
We can (and do) create many of our own problems, influenced (often unwittingly) by societal pressures.
That's why I suspect our best role may be to deemphasize the obfuscation of a biological system that works best (as Hunter--Gatherers?) relating more simply with the environment.
But you are developing a coaching system.
In some ways it doesn't matter exactly what such a tool is based on -- so long as it works well, with no ill effect to its clients. It's probably more important that the system is internally consistent and user-friendly.
Good Luck.
Rusty, you wrote:
"And they differ only in how well they serve the body and how severely they may overload the body's responses..........a little arousal may give you more energy to face a challenge, whereas too much arousal will lead to degenerative disease."
That's not quite right, according to what I've been reading. It has to do with the ratio of the cortisol and DHEA hormones released by the adrenal glands during stress. I'll report more about this in Part 2.
You wrote:
"That's why I suspect our best role may be to deemphasize the obfuscation of a biological system that works best (as Hunter--Gatherers?) relating more simply with the environment. But you are developing a coaching system."
I think it might be more accurate to say that our best role is to become more skilled at how to "deemphasize the obfuscation of a biological system." As adults, our conscious minds are very good at obfuscation!
Lots to think about there Griff! Or should we call you Grumpy Grandpa Griff? :)
I suffer quite badly from stress both professionally and personally. Professionally I have learnt to feed off it and use it to help me perform well. I've had mentoring roles with some younger staff members and it is amazing how many of them were embaressed or stressed about being stressed and how relived they were when I shared my feelings with them. My standard line - if you're not stressed you don't care so why are you even here?
Personally I'm not so efficient. I've entered a few social MTB races with the intention of 'challenging myself' and although I generally enjoy the event, I often end up picking up a chronic injury as part of the preperation or event. And as the event approaches I get increasing nervous about letting myself down or showing myself up, to the point of broken sleep and nightmares. A few years ago I was trying to get fit enough to tackle a 4 day stage event in Tasmania called 'Wildside' and my wife woke me up one night as I was whimpering and pedalling my legs in my sleep. In my dream I was sprinting down a lane trying to escape a black dog that was shadowing me in the undergrowth.
I also generally only ride with close mates or alone and rarely join a social ride with people I don't know. And I struggle to attempt any skills that I am not very proficient at in front of anyone - I'm known to have a wide repertoire of trackstand variants but few other talents.
One other thing to consider about stress in general is whether it is self-imposed or put upon you. There is research known as the 'Whitehall Study' that found that stress amongst senior civil service management involved in significant decision making was much less than the underlings actually doing the work. One theory is that the stress response is due to a lack of control when a policy is passed down to you. Obviously MTB is largely the first one, but if you eg enter an event because you think you ought to it may lead to a different stress result than if you really want to.
Anyway, I've gone on too long. I like the idea of reframing stress and will add that book to the list - until then I look forward to hearing what you discover. And that bike rodeo looks like it was a heap of fun for everyone!
Dogtank, thanks for sharing those stress-related struggles. You're the perfect test case for what we're talking about!
1. You're barking (hah) up the right tree when you link stress to caring, but I think it's the fear-based 'caring' for ourselves/self-image that usually triggers the problematic type of stress. True caring for others (AKA "tend-and-befriend" caring) or caring about a mission/cause evidently doesn't do that.
2. Thanks for mentioning the Whitehall Study - still ongoing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitehall_Study
The "Explanations and implications" section of that Wikipedia page is super interesting. Lack of control is indeed a factor but it's complicated.
3. You wrote:
"I struggle to attempt any skills that I am not very proficient at in front of anyone - I'm known to have a wide repertoire of trackstand variants but few other talents."
Hah! Doing a trackstand for the Cub Scouts was my first demo skill, as I'm likewise confident with it. I showed them a progression, ending with a respectable one-handed trackstand. I also demonstrated no-handed figure 8s, a tuck no-hander, a high nose pivot, and a slow fakie, as I'm confident with those as well. I forced myself to do a slow wheelie (not confident) but I framed it as a work in progress, part of my overall speech about the power of saying "not yet" when learning something new and still sucking. I gave myself 3 attempts. The first two ended quickly but I managed a respectable 15 yards on the final attempt which generated a round of cheering.
4. I've found lately that introducing myself as "grumpy grandpa Griff" is a great ice-breaker no matter what the situation.
It just occurred to me after publishing this post:
https://mtbpracticelab.substack.com/p/mtb-sessioning-practicing-vs-performing
... that the stress of sessioning with others is another example of how something could be harmful or helpful depending on one's mindset.