There is another choice in your poll which could be filed under “Other”. This is “I choose not to”. For me I would file advanced jumping, high speed cornering and high drops fall into that category. The associated risks are too high in the Risk/Reward equation and I simply choose not to pursue practicing those types of MTB skills.
You're absolutely right, Patrick. I have several 'I choose not to' skills that fall into that Risk/Reward category, too. For example, high narrow skinnies that I'm not willing to deliberately bail on to see if my body can take it.
And there's another variation of 'I choose not to.' For example, I'm not currently interested in learning to bunny hop higher than 18 inches.
I like this a lot, Griff. I say "not yet" a lot, and I've made slow and steady progress on skinnies and going uphill on rooty trails. I haven't focused on my jumps much yet but I know that pulling the front of the bike up with the arms is key, when the front wheel goes airborne. I have a jump like this one at the end of a curvy downhill that I jump with momentum only, that I mean to practice this on. I'll try it next time and see what happens. I usually ride a steel frame fat tire bike and they aren't conducive to most jumps, but at least I'll have a soft landing!
Hey Thomas, I'm glad to hear you lean towards 'not yet' and that you're making progress on skinnies and uphill rooty trails 'so far'. Do you have a 'I can't' for any MTB/bike-related skills?
FYI, I've started doing some work on my skinnies, too. One of my riding buddies (Pat Mitzel) suggested I get better at slow-speed ratcheting on skinnies (vs pedaling) and I got out earlier this week: https://www.strava.com/activities/10213809602
Thanks for the jump tip. I know that bringing the front wheel up close to one's body is key but I'm not yet sure to what extent it's done with pulling the bars with the hands vs. thrusting the hips to the hands or some combination of the two. I hope to experiment yet this week. Let me know if you get a chance to experiment with your fatty!
Well, there are plenty of MTB skills I see in practice that I am not looking to do! And big jumps are one of them. Jumping over rises like in your video, yes. I want to do those better, and at higher speed. But I see a lot of daredevil stuff like skinnies going for yards and yards, ten feet over the ground, where stopping means falling. I see ramped jumps and downhill trails that you take a ski lift to get to... I have no desire to do any of that.
My default is “not yet” but I am often more optimistic about my future abilities than warranted. In those cases it becomes “I can’t…( easily do this the way I expected.) I need to re-analyze the composite skills and try from there.
Regarding your jumping video clips: Notice the young rider is pulling the bars to his hips until way past the peak, and only worries about tipping the front end down until much later. You are anticipating and are too anxious to start matching the landing. In the 70s the Motocross style was to land rear wheel first off jumps. If you are pitched sideways landing the rear wheel first will straighten you out. For MTB its almost a religion to jam the front wheel into the dirt as soon as possible (to start steering - or go OTB?). For me, if I am in a position to land rear wheel first off the jump, I can easily adjust the angle of the bike to match the landing later, while arcing down.
I would humbly recommend finding a jump where you can get confident landing rear wheel first over and over. Even a small jump. Looping out is not as common as feared, but better to have a less steep transition so you are not concerned.
Darren, my default is likewise 'not yet' even though I'm deep into geezer territory. I do sometimes add the rationalization "I'm not willing to do what it would it take" which gives me the leeway to prioritize either other skills or other stuff in my non-biking life.
Thanks for the jump tips. "Bars to hips" is definitely what I want to experiment with this week but as I noted in my reply to Thomas Pluck above, I'm not yet sure to what extent it's done with pulling the bars with the hands vs. thrusting the hips to the hands or some combination of the two. Once I get that figured out, then landing skills!
Hopefully I can help with your question of "thrusting hips" on a jump.
Based on your still image and video I notice a few things happening:
But first I would suggest a paradigm shift away from your "Trajectory" notion.
You are focusing on the angle of the wheels of the bike as you go up and over the jump.
This is the wrong mindset. Apply the "Body First" principle and know your bicycle is a plaything in the air.
You can absolutely hit a big jump and squash it, pulling into a deep hinge to absorb the upward energy. Your knees will be bent and your hips will be "back" and the wheels will be parallel to the horizon (not the jump face). And on the way down you can extend your legs and pull the bars back to land rear wheel first, and you will be in the position of your young friend (on his take off) and the wheels will be more parallel to the take off than the landing angle. I don't say this is a general technique recommendation but rather to shift your focus away from an arc of the wheels. (It's also a great emergency technique to have if you are way short and are going to impact the front face of a double.)
Simon Lawton of Fluidride is a long time MTB coach and has lots of videos aside from his extensive coaching and staff. In talking about why people crash on jumps Simon points out that riders are getting bucked because they set their weight back as they hit the face of the jump. He attributes this to naturally backing away from something you are afraid of. If we look at your first still image we can definitely see your weight is back.
As soon you come off the lip you now have to try and get your body back in neutral balance over the bottom bracket before you land. This can be difficult and dangerous.
With your extensive experience you might not be afraid at all. Anticipating the force of the take off angle, you are probably adjusting backward to avoid having your body thrown forward like under heavy braking. Your leg position looks fine if you were riding on flat ground, so maybe you are just locking into that position. In any event your knees are way behind your toes (from vertical) which is a clue. Simon would say you counter balance that takeoff force by tipping your front foot back to match the angle of the takeoff, and your rear foot stays parallel to the horizon (giving you the needed wedge). Your hands can also help prevent you from collapsing forward but the feet/legs do almost all the work. Good news is your feet look to be in the right position.
The Loam Ranger tried to simplify all the jumping advice into one tip, "Just Stand Up."
If I look at your first picture you are standing up to the angle of the jump face. But you need to stay "standing up" perpendicular to the ground. That means the bike would rotate backward up the jump face but your body would stay the same position relative to the ground. If you did that then naturally you knees would be over your toes, and your hips would be close to the bars. But no "hip thrust" to make any of that happen. "Body First" and let the bike angle adjust to the terrain, which is something you know super well already.
This linked video show this "Just Stand Up" technique really well.
Thanks so much for your detailed reply, Darren. I've got a detailed response to compose. But first, it's looking like we'll have two more days of warm (50s) weather this weekend and then the temps plunge next week. So I'm hoping to get some experimenting done before then.
If there are things to ride that are at my outer boundary of skill, and the risk vs reward is not in good balance, I will say "I can't ride that." At nearly 70 years of age, I would rather put my energy into the things that are a "not yet," and enjoy the journey of getting there without the fear of ending it all.
Hi Griff - I like the new format with the video introduction!
As you probably could have guessed I have plenty of can'ts - mainly anything with the front wheel up. I like to say I'm on day 3650 of the 30 day wheelie challenge. Manuals are just as bad. I have had several attempts following the RLC path and they've all been marginally successful and then lead to injury. Generally back spasms, I think I am mentally compensating for the tipped back sensation by overworking my core and that leads to a flare up of an old chronic injury.
The not yets are more slow speed related. I can feel that fakies are do-able for me, I just can't do them (which makes it more frustrating at times). Low (no consequence) skinnies are the same.
Interesting to read some of the jumping suggestions on here. The young lad has a technique that is very different to the RLC approach and some of the suggestions also differ. It's good to hear alternative views and I'll bookmark this page and take some of them to my local jump spot soon.
Hey Dogtank, I'm glad you liked the video intro for this post. I plan to continue it. Can you say more about why you like it?
I'm not surprised that wheelies and manuals are on your 'can't' list. That's likely true for more than 99% of mountain bikers, including a significant chunk who have taken courses and clinics to learn them. They are not only very difficult but scary at the beginner and intermediate levels. Previous injuries and other physical limitations add to the difficulty. Are you able to make peace with having them as can'ts? Maybe edit it to "I can't for now"?
Fakies and skinnies are perfect for not-yets. They are frustrating, but generally, finding time and places to practice is more convenient.
Yes, jumps (and drops) have a surprisingly wide variety of approaches to learning. Lately, I don't mind this because I've gotten better at my "What did I learn today?" reflection practice, and thus my confidence in figuring out what seems to work for me has increased. I'm hoping that our winter weather holds off a few more days so I can get smarter!
There is another choice in your poll which could be filed under “Other”. This is “I choose not to”. For me I would file advanced jumping, high speed cornering and high drops fall into that category. The associated risks are too high in the Risk/Reward equation and I simply choose not to pursue practicing those types of MTB skills.
You're absolutely right, Patrick. I have several 'I choose not to' skills that fall into that Risk/Reward category, too. For example, high narrow skinnies that I'm not willing to deliberately bail on to see if my body can take it.
And there's another variation of 'I choose not to.' For example, I'm not currently interested in learning to bunny hop higher than 18 inches.
I like this a lot, Griff. I say "not yet" a lot, and I've made slow and steady progress on skinnies and going uphill on rooty trails. I haven't focused on my jumps much yet but I know that pulling the front of the bike up with the arms is key, when the front wheel goes airborne. I have a jump like this one at the end of a curvy downhill that I jump with momentum only, that I mean to practice this on. I'll try it next time and see what happens. I usually ride a steel frame fat tire bike and they aren't conducive to most jumps, but at least I'll have a soft landing!
Hey Thomas, I'm glad to hear you lean towards 'not yet' and that you're making progress on skinnies and uphill rooty trails 'so far'. Do you have a 'I can't' for any MTB/bike-related skills?
FYI, I've started doing some work on my skinnies, too. One of my riding buddies (Pat Mitzel) suggested I get better at slow-speed ratcheting on skinnies (vs pedaling) and I got out earlier this week: https://www.strava.com/activities/10213809602
Thanks for the jump tip. I know that bringing the front wheel up close to one's body is key but I'm not yet sure to what extent it's done with pulling the bars with the hands vs. thrusting the hips to the hands or some combination of the two. I hope to experiment yet this week. Let me know if you get a chance to experiment with your fatty!
Well, there are plenty of MTB skills I see in practice that I am not looking to do! And big jumps are one of them. Jumping over rises like in your video, yes. I want to do those better, and at higher speed. But I see a lot of daredevil stuff like skinnies going for yards and yards, ten feet over the ground, where stopping means falling. I see ramped jumps and downhill trails that you take a ski lift to get to... I have no desire to do any of that.
Exactly. See the comment by Pat Mitzel here regarding "I choose not to."
My default is “not yet” but I am often more optimistic about my future abilities than warranted. In those cases it becomes “I can’t…( easily do this the way I expected.) I need to re-analyze the composite skills and try from there.
Regarding your jumping video clips: Notice the young rider is pulling the bars to his hips until way past the peak, and only worries about tipping the front end down until much later. You are anticipating and are too anxious to start matching the landing. In the 70s the Motocross style was to land rear wheel first off jumps. If you are pitched sideways landing the rear wheel first will straighten you out. For MTB its almost a religion to jam the front wheel into the dirt as soon as possible (to start steering - or go OTB?). For me, if I am in a position to land rear wheel first off the jump, I can easily adjust the angle of the bike to match the landing later, while arcing down.
I would humbly recommend finding a jump where you can get confident landing rear wheel first over and over. Even a small jump. Looping out is not as common as feared, but better to have a less steep transition so you are not concerned.
Darren, my default is likewise 'not yet' even though I'm deep into geezer territory. I do sometimes add the rationalization "I'm not willing to do what it would it take" which gives me the leeway to prioritize either other skills or other stuff in my non-biking life.
Thanks for the jump tips. "Bars to hips" is definitely what I want to experiment with this week but as I noted in my reply to Thomas Pluck above, I'm not yet sure to what extent it's done with pulling the bars with the hands vs. thrusting the hips to the hands or some combination of the two. Once I get that figured out, then landing skills!
Griff,
Hopefully I can help with your question of "thrusting hips" on a jump.
Based on your still image and video I notice a few things happening:
But first I would suggest a paradigm shift away from your "Trajectory" notion.
You are focusing on the angle of the wheels of the bike as you go up and over the jump.
This is the wrong mindset. Apply the "Body First" principle and know your bicycle is a plaything in the air.
You can absolutely hit a big jump and squash it, pulling into a deep hinge to absorb the upward energy. Your knees will be bent and your hips will be "back" and the wheels will be parallel to the horizon (not the jump face). And on the way down you can extend your legs and pull the bars back to land rear wheel first, and you will be in the position of your young friend (on his take off) and the wheels will be more parallel to the take off than the landing angle. I don't say this is a general technique recommendation but rather to shift your focus away from an arc of the wheels. (It's also a great emergency technique to have if you are way short and are going to impact the front face of a double.)
Simon Lawton of Fluidride is a long time MTB coach and has lots of videos aside from his extensive coaching and staff. In talking about why people crash on jumps Simon points out that riders are getting bucked because they set their weight back as they hit the face of the jump. He attributes this to naturally backing away from something you are afraid of. If we look at your first still image we can definitely see your weight is back.
As soon you come off the lip you now have to try and get your body back in neutral balance over the bottom bracket before you land. This can be difficult and dangerous.
With your extensive experience you might not be afraid at all. Anticipating the force of the take off angle, you are probably adjusting backward to avoid having your body thrown forward like under heavy braking. Your leg position looks fine if you were riding on flat ground, so maybe you are just locking into that position. In any event your knees are way behind your toes (from vertical) which is a clue. Simon would say you counter balance that takeoff force by tipping your front foot back to match the angle of the takeoff, and your rear foot stays parallel to the horizon (giving you the needed wedge). Your hands can also help prevent you from collapsing forward but the feet/legs do almost all the work. Good news is your feet look to be in the right position.
The Loam Ranger tried to simplify all the jumping advice into one tip, "Just Stand Up."
If I look at your first picture you are standing up to the angle of the jump face. But you need to stay "standing up" perpendicular to the ground. That means the bike would rotate backward up the jump face but your body would stay the same position relative to the ground. If you did that then naturally you knees would be over your toes, and your hips would be close to the bars. But no "hip thrust" to make any of that happen. "Body First" and let the bike angle adjust to the terrain, which is something you know super well already.
This linked video show this "Just Stand Up" technique really well.
The Loam Ranger "Just Stand Up"
https://youtu.be/s9w2zSvuaGM?si=r2PPx0xCaFSGyHYa
Thanks so much for your detailed reply, Darren. I've got a detailed response to compose. But first, it's looking like we'll have two more days of warm (50s) weather this weekend and then the temps plunge next week. So I'm hoping to get some experimenting done before then.
If there are things to ride that are at my outer boundary of skill, and the risk vs reward is not in good balance, I will say "I can't ride that." At nearly 70 years of age, I would rather put my energy into the things that are a "not yet," and enjoy the journey of getting there without the fear of ending it all.
Exactly, John. See Pat Mitzel's comment above and my reply to him:
https://open.substack.com/pub/mtbpracticelab/p/use-power-of-so-far-and-not-yet-for-mtb-skills?r=4b40u&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=43687479
Hi Griff - I like the new format with the video introduction!
As you probably could have guessed I have plenty of can'ts - mainly anything with the front wheel up. I like to say I'm on day 3650 of the 30 day wheelie challenge. Manuals are just as bad. I have had several attempts following the RLC path and they've all been marginally successful and then lead to injury. Generally back spasms, I think I am mentally compensating for the tipped back sensation by overworking my core and that leads to a flare up of an old chronic injury.
The not yets are more slow speed related. I can feel that fakies are do-able for me, I just can't do them (which makes it more frustrating at times). Low (no consequence) skinnies are the same.
Interesting to read some of the jumping suggestions on here. The young lad has a technique that is very different to the RLC approach and some of the suggestions also differ. It's good to hear alternative views and I'll bookmark this page and take some of them to my local jump spot soon.
Hey Dogtank, I'm glad you liked the video intro for this post. I plan to continue it. Can you say more about why you like it?
I'm not surprised that wheelies and manuals are on your 'can't' list. That's likely true for more than 99% of mountain bikers, including a significant chunk who have taken courses and clinics to learn them. They are not only very difficult but scary at the beginner and intermediate levels. Previous injuries and other physical limitations add to the difficulty. Are you able to make peace with having them as can'ts? Maybe edit it to "I can't for now"?
Fakies and skinnies are perfect for not-yets. They are frustrating, but generally, finding time and places to practice is more convenient.
Yes, jumps (and drops) have a surprisingly wide variety of approaches to learning. Lately, I don't mind this because I've gotten better at my "What did I learn today?" reflection practice, and thus my confidence in figuring out what seems to work for me has increased. I'm hoping that our winter weather holds off a few more days so I can get smarter!