I have enough space/land to set up a little practice/obstacles section/course to practice skills safely. I have no idea where to start or what to do, what tools I need, and my skills are pretty basic. The question is: starting from basics, how would you set this up?
Hi Peter - I have quite a bit of experience building “features” in my backyard to practice on. What type of skills will you be focusing on first? Once I know that, I can recommend what and provide guidance on how to build. Most of what I build can be done with a drill for driving screws and a circular saw. Fastening is done with deck screws.
Pretty basic, I can do small obstacles but anything else is . . . something I need to practice. Rock gardens freak me out more than they need to. Probably tight switchbacks, too, so keen on any tips on how to actually design a small course including making the single track. I am 6'7", so my wheelbase is very long and I tend to struggle a bit on tight switchbacks--noting I have seen some vids on doing a track stand and pivoting the rear wheel a bit with a lift to get around tight obstacles. I came to MTB from road biking, so didn't grow up doing BMX or anything, and being tall, generally less co-ordinated.
For practicing what you would like to focus on, I would buy a set of practice cones. These can be used to layout a practice course that mimics a tight switchback. You can do this on flat ground first and then try a hill. Starting out you can start wide and as your skills get better, you can reduce the width of the path to increase the difficulty. Keep working on track stands and rear wheel pivots. They are skills that are important to have when negotiating tight switchbacks.
I think the most important skill to learn in your yard, driveway, garage, basement or neighborhood is the track stand. It is so fundamental to all slower-speed skills. You will likely have a much harder time learning to do front/rear-wheel pivots or skinnies until you get good at it. It's not simple to learn and most who try don't get far because they don't understand the basics.
Question 1: how do you plan to go about learning to get better at the basics of holding a track stand?
You also mentioned that you "can do small obstacles." Presumably that means smaller logs, ledges, curbs, boulders, etc.
Obstacles like those are idea for local practice. As you'll see in Pat's video, there are several techniques for going over stuff.
Question 2: Are you're interested in getting better at obstacles and if so, how might you learn the basics?
Question 1: how do you plan to go about learning to get better at the basics of holding a track stand? A: I'll check the videos first, but off the cuff, probably like I did for road riding, but try it on varying terrain using flats rather than my clipless pedals (so I can put my foot down quickly if I screw up).
Question 2: For sure, I do want to get better . . . I know that manuals are pretty important for this. I think the key for me is structured and regular practice in any case, increasing difficulty as I get better.
Q1: Yes, flats are important for learning to track stand but not just for safety. Maneuvering your feet on the pedals is also important.
I think you might be making an assumption that might cause you to hit a plateau and then decide it's not worth it.
How can you go back to the very beginning of a skill to make sure you've got the foundation correct?
If you can't get that from watching a video, then it can help to get coaching or take an online course that also has online coaching.
Once you know WHAT to practice, then you can come back here to MTB Practice Lab and learn HOW to practice!
Q2: Manuals are not the first step for learning to get over obstacles or over higher obstacles. They are one element of a very advanced technique. That puts you back to the same challenge of finding out the beginner basics for the technique to make sure you're building a solid foundation.
Hi Griff. I am John Harris, a 68 year old mountain bike rider from Northern Michigan. I do a lot of cross country races but this year I spent a lot of time working on technique. It is obviously a lifelong journey. The more I learn, the more and more there is to go back and practice. How do you continue to practice everything? I have stated to chart out the many drills I now do so that I can keep rotating though, doing some each practice. But I also spend much of each practice on a new skill I am trying to master. Am I on the right track?
Not exactly correct, Griff. I have long mastered the techniques that optimized speed (e.g., cornering, braking, etc.). I mostly want to improve technique for fun, technical riding, and because it seems that every skill I master improves my balance and safety on the bike. On your second question, I have identified my weaker skills and I do put primary effort into those. But the kid in me wants to manual, wheelie, bunny hop, etc. So, I find myself continuing to work on those skills but I slide back if I don't stay after all of them, making practice sessions longer and longer. Thanks for your interest in my progression.
I'm a recreational mountain biker (and a part-time MTB coach) with many other interests and responsibilities. I find that I have to accept a degree of degradation of some of the skills I've learned that I don't use much or that aren't as important to my riding enjoyment. If I don't, there's not enough time to learn new skills that interest me, or even just to go ride with buddies for fun.
I think there's always trade-offs. For example, you might find you enjoy working on the technical skills so much that your level of aerobic fitness declines a bit which has adverse effects on how well you normally do in your XC races. That might or might not be a tradeoff you want to take... in the short or long run.
Also, I see you used the word 'master' a couple of time. I think there's a wide range of levels for all MTB skills. Getting to a level of proficiency that satisfies us is often a decent goal, not mastery. And that can change frequently.
For example, I used to be quite happy with the size of the logs and boulders that I could clean. That changed about a year ago and I've since been on a bit of a mission to fix my technique so that I can clean larger ones... just for fun!
FYI, see my response to Jeff Carpenter's question for more details on which skills I try to regularly practice a bit:
Thanks Griff. So, instead of the magical answer I was seeking you went and got all practical on me! :) Story of my life. Seriously, this is good insight and helpful information. Like the rest of life, it sounds like balance is the key. Thanks for your response.
Hello! I am Patricia, a 66-year-old mtb/gravel rider from France. I will not be available for this first AMA but I'd like to share something I have noticed about my mtb practice. Each time I take 5 mn to practice the most basic skills like tight cornering before setting out for a ride, everything will flow during the ride. If I don't, things will take quite some time before getting flowy, like one hour. If ever you have some light to shed on that, Griff or anybody else? I am quite content to just know that this before-ride practice works wonders, but also get that there might be some insight to gain there that can be helpful in other areas.
I'm guessing that it's a relaxation/concentration trigger for you.
It could be that that way you do a 5-minute practice session puts you into a here-and-now mental state in which distracting thoughts or anxieties are diminished and sensations are heightened.
That then allows you to more quickly get into that feeling of flow on the trail.
Conversely, if you don't take the time for that 5-minute practice session, you're more likely to be less relaxed, not as focused, not aware of your mental distractions and thus, not able to get into that feeling of flow.
Patricia, you replied elsewhere so I've copied and pasted it here in our thread.
You wrote:
"Sorry for my delayed answer, Griff! Indeed, I find 'good' problems are the best! This is it- the "here-and-now mental state" that allows me the ease and flow I so love on the bike. It takes me out of judgment too! Thank you. It helps when someone has the words to explain something."
Hi I am Mark in my 60s and I ride Mt bikes & dirt bikes learning to play guitar and many other hobbies. How do I stay motivated to practice after missing several days ? I went to Whistler and was riding everyday for 7 days straight then came home and have been riding my motorcycle dirt bike and now I have not been back on the bicycle in a week. Its a strange feeling of losing momentum and then trying to figure out a way to get the ball rolling again.
Mark, getting and staying motivated to practice is a tricky and complex topic. I plan to delve deep on it, but it's likely going to take more than one post!
But I think it can actually be a helpful thing for us to "lose motivation" no matter what seems to trigger it.
I try to think of it first as an opportunity to rexamine my intention for the skill and to what extent it makes sense to keep at it given the other aspects of my life.
If that seems in order, I examine to what extent I'm having a hard time getting motivated to restart practicing because I've hit a plateau. The progression has stopped.
Does that seem to be the case for you or have you other insights?
That could be the case of hitting a plateau. I have a few other insights for me personally I get board easily . And I have so many other interests I can get side tracked into another hobby. What I need to learn to to is be able to spread myself out and not think just because I am riding my Dirt bike that all my skills of Mt biking have deteriorated away. I think so much of my lack of motivation is my head chatter . I dont give myself a pat on the back at all or any time to rest . If I am not on a perfect practice routine I end up giving up. I set my self up for failure in my head my trying to be perfect at everything which is impossible which leads to negative self talk and then no chance of getting back on the horse . The bright side is I do see my weakness and from here I can work on saying hang in there your doing pretty good. Right now the Guitar is doing a number on my head I should say my mind is doing a number on myself for not being better after all the practice I have been doing with the guitar . Thanks Griff
Mark, you're showing a pretty good self-awareness in that comment so you're in better shape than you might think!
Head chatter is a plague for all of us, and negative chatter is common. But I've learned that just knowing it's a problem isn't enough to get it under control.
Do you have a strategy for tackling it, other than telling yourself "hang in there, you're doing pretty good"?
Hello! I am Renee a youthful 60 something mountain biker whose siblings keep telling her she needs to pick up a new sport!
NEVER!!
My question is when practicing visualization for a skill is it helpful to create a verbal mantra to key specific movements through the skill or would that become a mental distraction?
Renee, I've not come across anything about using a verbal mantra that's keyed to specified movements when visualizing (mental rehearsal) to LEARN a skill.
Everything I've read on the subject thus far emphasizes the senses, especially:
1) imagining what a specific movement feels like
2) imagining what you're seeing
3) imagining what you're hearing
The more detailed you can get with those, the better. It would seem that a verbal mantra would be a hindrance to getting better at the details.
If you've ALREADY learned the skill to your satisfaction, then I could see how using a verbal mantra during visualization might help as a type of relaxation/concentration practice for performance.
As for whether or not you'd use the same mantra when actually performing, I presume so but I'm not sure!
Trying to learn to manual is frustrating because I can not get up high enough to even find the balance point. I have no fear of looping out; in fact, I'd love to loop out so I know I am progressing.
No video yet (maybe this weekend). Is anyone else stuck at Step 1? Has anyone been stuck there and managed to break through?
You might find that working on wheelies at the same time as manuals helps. I found the skills complementary and reinforcing. Manuals are HARD, so keep it in mind that the progression plateaus can be quite long. I've been working on them for a few years now and I could go months with no discernible improvements and then suddenly a light bulb turns on and I would be climbing the progression curve again only to find another long plateau. regular practice is pretty important too.
I think the wheelie is easier to force/practice looping out so that might help you in finding how much range there is before looping out.
Dave, I see you answered with a comment elsewhere (top level instead of a reply). No worries, these threaded discussions are confusing!
I'm copying/pasting your answer here in the original thread to keep things tidy! You wrote:
==================
I've done far less than I should have, for some personal reasons. But hope springs eternal....
After I broke a rib and tore a rotator cuff (this has to be a couple of years now) going OTB on one of the early Manual lessons, I have been very hesitant to go back to it. I actually got the crash on video! After many viewings, freeze frame, slo-mo etc, the video revealed the reason for the OTB; One of my arms was straight, the other bent, so when the front wheel came down, it was at an angle. The bike cut right while I did the Newtonian thing and flew forward onto the asphalt....
Since then I have been VERY nervous about wheel lifts. But there is hope. MANY reps of the basic drops technique have taught me to straighten BOTH arms (once or twice, I didn't, and the landing was...exciting. I hope to revisit the RLC manuals module soon, but might do drops first as I aspire to jumps....
This weekend I spent Saturday recovering from the ill effects of a double vaccination, and just did a casual ride on local singletrack on Sunday.
Hmmmm... I'm not sure whare is the question you mentioned yesterday. This threading make my brain confused. Apologies for the repetition.
I also hate it when I cannot do something, anything. I aspire to Bond villain levels of supergenius....
I want to learn manuals so I can better clear larger trail obstacles. Same with bump jumps. The front wheel lift is the gateway drug to all sorts of stuff. Also...fun!
Drops, besides being pretty common on my trails, get me mentally used to being airborne, which is s hurdle of its own
Hi Griff. I am a very passionate mountain bike at the age of 66. Recently retired. My issue is that often I only have 3 hours or so of play time available to me. In order to make the most of it, I spend the majority of the time riding trails instead of dedicating some time to skills building. What I need is some sort of motivation to turn my free time into maybe a 50/50
A great way to combine a ride with skills practice is to ride behind someone slower than you! When I get slowed down, I can focus on perfect form rather than greater speed. greasing that groove at slower speeds helps write the neural paths that can be called on later at higher speeds. It also provides opportunities to practice track stands and hopping, especially if you know the trails – when you know there's a tricky section coming up ahead, you can slow down early and enter a track stand while the rider in front of you has a go at it, and since you've given yourself lots of trail space, you can enter and exit the track stand numerous times as you work to extend duration while still having enough runaway to make your go at the obstacle.
George, I like Michael Houlden's advice about how incorporate some skills practice when riding a trail with one or more other riders who are slower than you.
I'm planning to do a post about sessioning obstacles on a trail in which you take time to attempt an obstacle or section several times, even choosing lines to make it more difficult.
But sessioning is not usually enough to build a skill. And that brings us back to your point about the motivation for "dedicating some time to building skills."
Can you gives us more background on what you've tried and what seems to have gotten in the way?
I find practicing skills to be a pretty energetic workout, so don't think that a skills day or session is a wipe out from an exercise point of view. I often get just as much, sometimes more, stoke from a skills session as I do from riding trail. The thrill of nailing a skill and progressing is pretty rad, too.
I've been riding for over 30 years and coaching/instructing for 10. One of the challenges I'm facing with one of my own skills development projects is around jumping. The nearest source of consistent jumps is an indoor bike park located 2h drive away. With a 4h round trip, I want to spend a lot of time at the park working on my jump technique. You've recently mentioned some of the challenges our brain experiences when we spend prolonged periods of time working on a new skill. This aligns with my experience at the park. It took me two visits to build up the confidence and technique to hit the black/advanced line with 55º lips. it wasn't until I'd spent 3hr+ on the third visit that I had the a-ha moment and found the flaw in my form that was preventing clean jumps on the black when my blue line felt mint. After finally nailing a clean run through the jumps I said "great! let's call it a day and end on a solid run". I figured I'd pick up where I left off on my next visit. about 3 weeks later I was back at the park and I didn't have it! it took 2hr+ before I found the movement pattern again – certainly faster, but it was surprising to take so long. I'm heading there today, I have been visualising the movement pattern and timing, and practicing the pattern on my RIpRow machine so it will be interesting to see how quickly I find the flow today.
The question being, when the practice facility is such a great distance from home, going for just an hour a bunch of times versus 3-4 hours less regularly isn't practical. How can we maximize the learning and retention in this sort of scenario given the 10minute scenario you brought up recently?
How long should one spend making attempts on a difficult move or pattern before taking a break and how much time should be left between attempts?
A similar scenario comes up at my local trail network. there's an obstacle at the start of one of the gnarlier trails that is particularly difficult. I usually get through the obstacle, but I range between a couple attempts and dozens. I've spent 30minutes seasoning the obstacle at times, then finally I get it, my brain registers a couple of points of difference that lead to success, I rejoice (loudly!) and continue the trail. I think to myself "yes! I got it. it'll be easier next time" only to find myself working for 20-30minutes at it the next time I'm there and sometimes not cleaning the obstacle. On one occasion, I cleaned it in relatively few attempts so I decided to try to burn it in and make a second pass before finishing the trail only to spend the next 20minutes arguing with it before cleaning it again and saying "got it" and moving on. Clearly I'm not burning in the pattern necessary and having relearn every time I'm there, and maybe it's only luck that I get it in the end?
I'm not sure what my question is here, but it occupies a lot of my thought processing so perhaps it would be a worthy discussion point.
I can relate in many ways and lately I've decided that I need to a deep dive into practicing both mental rehearsal (visualizing) and body rehearsal. See my post:
I'm got about 3 weeks into the set relaxation and concentration techniques and a week into mental rehearsal for my bunny hops. I then got a bit derailed by a month of camping and now a pulled hamstring so the jury is still out.
You wrote yesterday:
"I have been visualising the movement pattern and timing, and practicing the pattern on my RIpRow machine so it will be interesting to see how quickly I find the flow today."
1. How did it go yesterday?
2. Do you have an idea as to the level of your visualization skill? Do you try to get better at it?
I'll need a little more time to craft a response to the issues you raised in the latter section of your comment.
Hit the bike park today actually. Nailed the black jump line clean on the third attempt so stoke meter at 11. Its a bit funny though because while I was cleaning the jump line fairly regularly today, I don't feel like I engaged the same movement pattern that I did the last time I was there. I head back again next weekend so we'll see what happens then.
I took breaks today, sometimes to eat, sometimes to just rest, or roll through the pump track. That seemed to help "calm" things a bit.
I feel like my visualization is WAY better than my actual ability. I can see and feel the movements I need to make and then it takes quite a bit of work to execute on it.
1. Do you visualize in slow motion or regular speed or both?
2. Do you use a written narrative that describes the sequences of movements, and then reflect on those periodically to add more details to it?
There is research on the latter, "an imagery training technique called layered stimulus response training (LSRT). LSRT is based on the principle of developing imagery ability in layers, one tiny step at a time, instead of trying to create a vivid scene all at once."
Griff do you think it is possible that we might not trust our visualization?
Michael comments that his visualization is way better than his ability. Perhaps we don’t believe we have the same level of ability as our visualization?
I wonder if it’s possible that sometimes that is our bodies way of protecting us when we aren’t quite physically up to a task whether we are just tired or don’t have a basic building block for a skill?
The research seems to indicate that visualization is only effective when we've successfully performed the skill or one element of the skill at least once.
Or conversely, it's not effective for learning a skill or one element of a skill that we've never actually performed.
So that seems to validate your point about not having "a basic building block for a skill".
It also relates to your point about belief. I know I bunny-hopped 12 inches a few times. But in analyzing my video, I can see that my technique was flawed. So now I've isolated the smaller elements of the skill to work on. I can perform those chunks correctly sometimes but not always. So I'm at the point where visualization can now be of real help. I've got an ability to do all the chunks but not yet able to put them all together.
A) What's your thinking about the breaks you took in light of what I wrote?
B) What's your thinking about what I wrote regarding retrieving from short-term memory vs long-term memory in your earlier practice session at the jump park and your sessioning the trail obstacle?
Hi Griff. I'm curious if you have a suggestion about a set of basic skills that you'd practice consistently, which you ideally always keep tuned up. I tend to jump around with different skills, and am thinking there are probably some basics that are universally valuable, so just keep those tuned. But of course there's a limit to how much a person can squeeze in. So are there two or three or four skills or techniques that you always keep tuned, and that are useful as a baseline for lots of other skills.
Jeff, I consistently practice track stands, skinnies, logover/rockovers/ledges, small bunny hops, and for fun, slow fakies.
Track stands and bunny hops seem to be "useful as a baseline for lots of other skills" as you wrote. The others are helpful for the technical riding on the trails nearest me.
That said, I definitely see that my 'list' could evolve over time. I want to get to the point where I would add other skills to the frequently-praticed list: manuals and pivots, especially, plus wheelies for fun.
So I guess this means I can't really recommend MY LIST but I do endorse the idea of having your OWN LIST.
I've done far less than I should have, for some personal reasons. But hope springs eternal....
After I broke a rib and tore a rotator cuff (this has to be a couple of years now) going OTB on one of the early Manual lessons, I have been very hesitant to go back to it. I actually got the crash on video! After many viewings, freeze frame, slo-mo etc, the video revealed the reason for the OTB; One of my arms was straight, the other bent, so when the front wheel came down, it was at an angle. The bike cut right while I did the Newtonian thing and flew forward onto the asphalt....
Since then I have been VERY nervous about wheel lifts. But there is hope. MANY reps of the basic drops technique have taught me to straighten BOTH arms (once or twice, I didn't, and the landing was...exciting. I hope to revisit the RLC manuals module soon, but might do drops first as I aspire to jumps....
This weekend I spent Saturday recovering from the ill effects of a double vaccination, and just did a casual ride on local singletrack on Sunday.
I have enough space/land to set up a little practice/obstacles section/course to practice skills safely. I have no idea where to start or what to do, what tools I need, and my skills are pretty basic. The question is: starting from basics, how would you set this up?
Hi Peter - I have quite a bit of experience building “features” in my backyard to practice on. What type of skills will you be focusing on first? Once I know that, I can recommend what and provide guidance on how to build. Most of what I build can be done with a drill for driving screws and a circular saw. Fastening is done with deck screws.
Pretty basic, I can do small obstacles but anything else is . . . something I need to practice. Rock gardens freak me out more than they need to. Probably tight switchbacks, too, so keen on any tips on how to actually design a small course including making the single track. I am 6'7", so my wheelbase is very long and I tend to struggle a bit on tight switchbacks--noting I have seen some vids on doing a track stand and pivoting the rear wheel a bit with a lift to get around tight obstacles. I came to MTB from road biking, so didn't grow up doing BMX or anything, and being tall, generally less co-ordinated.
For practicing what you would like to focus on, I would buy a set of practice cones. These can be used to layout a practice course that mimics a tight switchback. You can do this on flat ground first and then try a hill. Starting out you can start wide and as your skills get better, you can reduce the width of the path to increase the difficulty. Keep working on track stands and rear wheel pivots. They are skills that are important to have when negotiating tight switchbacks.
Peter, I think Pat Mitzel has given you some good advice. He has a blog post on the RLC Online MTB Coaching site titled:
A DIY Guide to Building Backyard MTB Practice Obstacles
that includes a video and free PDF guide:
https://www.rlc-mtb.com/blog/backyard-mtb-obstacle-building-guide
I think the most important skill to learn in your yard, driveway, garage, basement or neighborhood is the track stand. It is so fundamental to all slower-speed skills. You will likely have a much harder time learning to do front/rear-wheel pivots or skinnies until you get good at it. It's not simple to learn and most who try don't get far because they don't understand the basics.
Question 1: how do you plan to go about learning to get better at the basics of holding a track stand?
You also mentioned that you "can do small obstacles." Presumably that means smaller logs, ledges, curbs, boulders, etc.
Obstacles like those are idea for local practice. As you'll see in Pat's video, there are several techniques for going over stuff.
Question 2: Are you're interested in getting better at obstacles and if so, how might you learn the basics?
Question 1: how do you plan to go about learning to get better at the basics of holding a track stand? A: I'll check the videos first, but off the cuff, probably like I did for road riding, but try it on varying terrain using flats rather than my clipless pedals (so I can put my foot down quickly if I screw up).
Question 2: For sure, I do want to get better . . . I know that manuals are pretty important for this. I think the key for me is structured and regular practice in any case, increasing difficulty as I get better.
Peter,
Q1: Yes, flats are important for learning to track stand but not just for safety. Maneuvering your feet on the pedals is also important.
I think you might be making an assumption that might cause you to hit a plateau and then decide it's not worth it.
How can you go back to the very beginning of a skill to make sure you've got the foundation correct?
If you can't get that from watching a video, then it can help to get coaching or take an online course that also has online coaching.
Once you know WHAT to practice, then you can come back here to MTB Practice Lab and learn HOW to practice!
Q2: Manuals are not the first step for learning to get over obstacles or over higher obstacles. They are one element of a very advanced technique. That puts you back to the same challenge of finding out the beginner basics for the technique to make sure you're building a solid foundation.
Hi Griff. I am John Harris, a 68 year old mountain bike rider from Northern Michigan. I do a lot of cross country races but this year I spent a lot of time working on technique. It is obviously a lifelong journey. The more I learn, the more and more there is to go back and practice. How do you continue to practice everything? I have stated to chart out the many drills I now do so that I can keep rotating though, doing some each practice. But I also spend much of each practice on a new skill I am trying to master. Am I on the right track?
John, presumably you've decided to "work on technique" so that you can go FASTER in your cross country races.
Question 1: Is that correct or do you have other reasons for it?
I'm not a racer but since you're not a pro, I don't think it's reasonable to "practice everything."
Question 2: Have you identified which are your weakest skills and which would have the most payoff on your goals if you could improve?
Not exactly correct, Griff. I have long mastered the techniques that optimized speed (e.g., cornering, braking, etc.). I mostly want to improve technique for fun, technical riding, and because it seems that every skill I master improves my balance and safety on the bike. On your second question, I have identified my weaker skills and I do put primary effort into those. But the kid in me wants to manual, wheelie, bunny hop, etc. So, I find myself continuing to work on those skills but I slide back if I don't stay after all of them, making practice sessions longer and longer. Thanks for your interest in my progression.
Thanks for those detailed answers, John.
I'm a recreational mountain biker (and a part-time MTB coach) with many other interests and responsibilities. I find that I have to accept a degree of degradation of some of the skills I've learned that I don't use much or that aren't as important to my riding enjoyment. If I don't, there's not enough time to learn new skills that interest me, or even just to go ride with buddies for fun.
I think there's always trade-offs. For example, you might find you enjoy working on the technical skills so much that your level of aerobic fitness declines a bit which has adverse effects on how well you normally do in your XC races. That might or might not be a tradeoff you want to take... in the short or long run.
Also, I see you used the word 'master' a couple of time. I think there's a wide range of levels for all MTB skills. Getting to a level of proficiency that satisfies us is often a decent goal, not mastery. And that can change frequently.
For example, I used to be quite happy with the size of the logs and boulders that I could clean. That changed about a year ago and I've since been on a bit of a mission to fix my technique so that I can clean larger ones... just for fun!
FYI, see my response to Jeff Carpenter's question for more details on which skills I try to regularly practice a bit:
https://mtbpracticelab.substack.com/p/mtb-practice-lab-ama-ask-me-anything-oct16/comment/976910
Thanks Griff. So, instead of the magical answer I was seeking you went and got all practical on me! :) Story of my life. Seriously, this is good insight and helpful information. Like the rest of life, it sounds like balance is the key. Thanks for your response.
You're welcome, John. I enjoyed the exchange, especially knowing that you're a fellow geezer!
Hello! I am Patricia, a 66-year-old mtb/gravel rider from France. I will not be available for this first AMA but I'd like to share something I have noticed about my mtb practice. Each time I take 5 mn to practice the most basic skills like tight cornering before setting out for a ride, everything will flow during the ride. If I don't, things will take quite some time before getting flowy, like one hour. If ever you have some light to shed on that, Griff or anybody else? I am quite content to just know that this before-ride practice works wonders, but also get that there might be some insight to gain there that can be helpful in other areas.
Patricia,
This seems like a good problem to have!
I'm guessing that it's a relaxation/concentration trigger for you.
It could be that that way you do a 5-minute practice session puts you into a here-and-now mental state in which distracting thoughts or anxieties are diminished and sensations are heightened.
That then allows you to more quickly get into that feeling of flow on the trail.
Conversely, if you don't take the time for that 5-minute practice session, you're more likely to be less relaxed, not as focused, not aware of your mental distractions and thus, not able to get into that feeling of flow.
Does this seem plausible?
Patricia, you replied elsewhere so I've copied and pasted it here in our thread.
You wrote:
"Sorry for my delayed answer, Griff! Indeed, I find 'good' problems are the best! This is it- the "here-and-now mental state" that allows me the ease and flow I so love on the bike. It takes me out of judgment too! Thank you. It helps when someone has the words to explain something."
You're welcome!
Hi I am Mark in my 60s and I ride Mt bikes & dirt bikes learning to play guitar and many other hobbies. How do I stay motivated to practice after missing several days ? I went to Whistler and was riding everyday for 7 days straight then came home and have been riding my motorcycle dirt bike and now I have not been back on the bicycle in a week. Its a strange feeling of losing momentum and then trying to figure out a way to get the ball rolling again.
Mark, getting and staying motivated to practice is a tricky and complex topic. I plan to delve deep on it, but it's likely going to take more than one post!
But I think it can actually be a helpful thing for us to "lose motivation" no matter what seems to trigger it.
I try to think of it first as an opportunity to rexamine my intention for the skill and to what extent it makes sense to keep at it given the other aspects of my life.
If that seems in order, I examine to what extent I'm having a hard time getting motivated to restart practicing because I've hit a plateau. The progression has stopped.
Does that seem to be the case for you or have you other insights?
That could be the case of hitting a plateau. I have a few other insights for me personally I get board easily . And I have so many other interests I can get side tracked into another hobby. What I need to learn to to is be able to spread myself out and not think just because I am riding my Dirt bike that all my skills of Mt biking have deteriorated away. I think so much of my lack of motivation is my head chatter . I dont give myself a pat on the back at all or any time to rest . If I am not on a perfect practice routine I end up giving up. I set my self up for failure in my head my trying to be perfect at everything which is impossible which leads to negative self talk and then no chance of getting back on the horse . The bright side is I do see my weakness and from here I can work on saying hang in there your doing pretty good. Right now the Guitar is doing a number on my head I should say my mind is doing a number on myself for not being better after all the practice I have been doing with the guitar . Thanks Griff
Mark, you're showing a pretty good self-awareness in that comment so you're in better shape than you might think!
Head chatter is a plague for all of us, and negative chatter is common. But I've learned that just knowing it's a problem isn't enough to get it under control.
Do you have a strategy for tackling it, other than telling yourself "hang in there, you're doing pretty good"?
I would say no other than being stubborn and not giving up that’s about the only strategy that comes to my mind
I've got two posts in the works that might interest you. In the meantime, make good use of being stubborn!
* Mindsets: Being good vs Getting Better
* How a different type of meditation practice can improve your MTB practice
I will read Your posts . One positive feeling I am having is a desire to learn . Thanks Griff
Hello! I am Renee a youthful 60 something mountain biker whose siblings keep telling her she needs to pick up a new sport!
NEVER!!
My question is when practicing visualization for a skill is it helpful to create a verbal mantra to key specific movements through the skill or would that become a mental distraction?
Renee, I've not come across anything about using a verbal mantra that's keyed to specified movements when visualizing (mental rehearsal) to LEARN a skill.
Everything I've read on the subject thus far emphasizes the senses, especially:
1) imagining what a specific movement feels like
2) imagining what you're seeing
3) imagining what you're hearing
The more detailed you can get with those, the better. It would seem that a verbal mantra would be a hindrance to getting better at the details.
If you've ALREADY learned the skill to your satisfaction, then I could see how using a verbal mantra during visualization might help as a type of relaxation/concentration practice for performance.
As for whether or not you'd use the same mantra when actually performing, I presume so but I'm not sure!
I'm 66 with no inherent athletic ability.
Trying to learn to manual is frustrating because I can not get up high enough to even find the balance point. I have no fear of looping out; in fact, I'd love to loop out so I know I am progressing.
No video yet (maybe this weekend). Is anyone else stuck at Step 1? Has anyone been stuck there and managed to break through?
Dave,
You might find that working on wheelies at the same time as manuals helps. I found the skills complementary and reinforcing. Manuals are HARD, so keep it in mind that the progression plateaus can be quite long. I've been working on them for a few years now and I could go months with no discernible improvements and then suddenly a light bulb turns on and I would be climbing the progression curve again only to find another long plateau. regular practice is pretty important too.
I think the wheelie is easier to force/practice looping out so that might help you in finding how much range there is before looping out.
Dave, I know you're an RLC member.
1) Can tell us a little about what you've done or tried to do with the RLC course on Manuals?
2) How did it go this weekend?
Dave, I see you answered with a comment elsewhere (top level instead of a reply). No worries, these threaded discussions are confusing!
I'm copying/pasting your answer here in the original thread to keep things tidy! You wrote:
==================
I've done far less than I should have, for some personal reasons. But hope springs eternal....
After I broke a rib and tore a rotator cuff (this has to be a couple of years now) going OTB on one of the early Manual lessons, I have been very hesitant to go back to it. I actually got the crash on video! After many viewings, freeze frame, slo-mo etc, the video revealed the reason for the OTB; One of my arms was straight, the other bent, so when the front wheel came down, it was at an angle. The bike cut right while I did the Newtonian thing and flew forward onto the asphalt....
Since then I have been VERY nervous about wheel lifts. But there is hope. MANY reps of the basic drops technique have taught me to straighten BOTH arms (once or twice, I didn't, and the landing was...exciting. I hope to revisit the RLC manuals module soon, but might do drops first as I aspire to jumps....
This weekend I spent Saturday recovering from the ill effects of a double vaccination, and just did a casual ride on local singletrack on Sunday.
Ahhh, I remember seeing that crash video, though I didn't remember the extent of your injuries. Ugh.
If you aspire to jumps, I'm not sure that learning drops is going to help. Can you say more about your thinking?
And somewhat related, why do you want to learn manuals?
Dave, I'm glad we had a chance to chat by phone last week. I hope you're having a great time riding in Bentonville this week!
Let me know if you have any follow-up questions regarding jumps, manuals, and drops.
Hmmmm... I'm not sure whare is the question you mentioned yesterday. This threading make my brain confused. Apologies for the repetition.
I also hate it when I cannot do something, anything. I aspire to Bond villain levels of supergenius....
I want to learn manuals so I can better clear larger trail obstacles. Same with bump jumps. The front wheel lift is the gateway drug to all sorts of stuff. Also...fun!
Drops, besides being pretty common on my trails, get me mentally used to being airborne, which is s hurdle of its own
You placed the comment in the right spot, Mr. Bond. ;-)
I'm glad to see that, like me, you have significant MTB-skills-related aspirations. We're in this together, man!
Hi Griff. I am a very passionate mountain bike at the age of 66. Recently retired. My issue is that often I only have 3 hours or so of play time available to me. In order to make the most of it, I spend the majority of the time riding trails instead of dedicating some time to skills building. What I need is some sort of motivation to turn my free time into maybe a 50/50
George,
A great way to combine a ride with skills practice is to ride behind someone slower than you! When I get slowed down, I can focus on perfect form rather than greater speed. greasing that groove at slower speeds helps write the neural paths that can be called on later at higher speeds. It also provides opportunities to practice track stands and hopping, especially if you know the trails – when you know there's a tricky section coming up ahead, you can slow down early and enter a track stand while the rider in front of you has a go at it, and since you've given yourself lots of trail space, you can enter and exit the track stand numerous times as you work to extend duration while still having enough runaway to make your go at the obstacle.
George, I like Michael Houlden's advice about how incorporate some skills practice when riding a trail with one or more other riders who are slower than you.
I'm planning to do a post about sessioning obstacles on a trail in which you take time to attempt an obstacle or section several times, even choosing lines to make it more difficult.
But sessioning is not usually enough to build a skill. And that brings us back to your point about the motivation for "dedicating some time to building skills."
Can you gives us more background on what you've tried and what seems to have gotten in the way?
George,
I find practicing skills to be a pretty energetic workout, so don't think that a skills day or session is a wipe out from an exercise point of view. I often get just as much, sometimes more, stoke from a skills session as I do from riding trail. The thrill of nailing a skill and progressing is pretty rad, too.
Hi Griff,
I've been riding for over 30 years and coaching/instructing for 10. One of the challenges I'm facing with one of my own skills development projects is around jumping. The nearest source of consistent jumps is an indoor bike park located 2h drive away. With a 4h round trip, I want to spend a lot of time at the park working on my jump technique. You've recently mentioned some of the challenges our brain experiences when we spend prolonged periods of time working on a new skill. This aligns with my experience at the park. It took me two visits to build up the confidence and technique to hit the black/advanced line with 55º lips. it wasn't until I'd spent 3hr+ on the third visit that I had the a-ha moment and found the flaw in my form that was preventing clean jumps on the black when my blue line felt mint. After finally nailing a clean run through the jumps I said "great! let's call it a day and end on a solid run". I figured I'd pick up where I left off on my next visit. about 3 weeks later I was back at the park and I didn't have it! it took 2hr+ before I found the movement pattern again – certainly faster, but it was surprising to take so long. I'm heading there today, I have been visualising the movement pattern and timing, and practicing the pattern on my RIpRow machine so it will be interesting to see how quickly I find the flow today.
The question being, when the practice facility is such a great distance from home, going for just an hour a bunch of times versus 3-4 hours less regularly isn't practical. How can we maximize the learning and retention in this sort of scenario given the 10minute scenario you brought up recently?
How long should one spend making attempts on a difficult move or pattern before taking a break and how much time should be left between attempts?
A similar scenario comes up at my local trail network. there's an obstacle at the start of one of the gnarlier trails that is particularly difficult. I usually get through the obstacle, but I range between a couple attempts and dozens. I've spent 30minutes seasoning the obstacle at times, then finally I get it, my brain registers a couple of points of difference that lead to success, I rejoice (loudly!) and continue the trail. I think to myself "yes! I got it. it'll be easier next time" only to find myself working for 20-30minutes at it the next time I'm there and sometimes not cleaning the obstacle. On one occasion, I cleaned it in relatively few attempts so I decided to try to burn it in and make a second pass before finishing the trail only to spend the next 20minutes arguing with it before cleaning it again and saying "got it" and moving on. Clearly I'm not burning in the pattern necessary and having relearn every time I'm there, and maybe it's only luck that I get it in the end?
I'm not sure what my question is here, but it occupies a lot of my thought processing so perhaps it would be a worthy discussion point.
cheers,
Michael
Michael, I love your problem!
I can relate in many ways and lately I've decided that I need to a deep dive into practicing both mental rehearsal (visualizing) and body rehearsal. See my post:
https://mtbpracticelab.substack.com/p/mental-rehearsal-body-rehearsal-mtb-practice
I'm got about 3 weeks into the set relaxation and concentration techniques and a week into mental rehearsal for my bunny hops. I then got a bit derailed by a month of camping and now a pulled hamstring so the jury is still out.
You wrote yesterday:
"I have been visualising the movement pattern and timing, and practicing the pattern on my RIpRow machine so it will be interesting to see how quickly I find the flow today."
1. How did it go yesterday?
2. Do you have an idea as to the level of your visualization skill? Do you try to get better at it?
I'll need a little more time to craft a response to the issues you raised in the latter section of your comment.
Hit the bike park today actually. Nailed the black jump line clean on the third attempt so stoke meter at 11. Its a bit funny though because while I was cleaning the jump line fairly regularly today, I don't feel like I engaged the same movement pattern that I did the last time I was there. I head back again next weekend so we'll see what happens then.
I took breaks today, sometimes to eat, sometimes to just rest, or roll through the pump track. That seemed to help "calm" things a bit.
I feel like my visualization is WAY better than my actual ability. I can see and feel the movements I need to make and then it takes quite a bit of work to execute on it.
Two questions, Michael:
1. Do you visualize in slow motion or regular speed or both?
2. Do you use a written narrative that describes the sequences of movements, and then reflect on those periodically to add more details to it?
There is research on the latter, "an imagery training technique called layered stimulus response training (LSRT). LSRT is based on the principle of developing imagery ability in layers, one tiny step at a time, instead of trying to create a vivid scene all at once."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/21520704.2016.1205698
Regular speed. It never occured to me to slow it down. Or speed it up for that matter.
a written narrative? nope.
I'll check out the link.
I included my first draft of my written narrative for a bunny hop in my post:
https://mtbpracticelab.substack.com/p/mental-rehearsal-body-rehearsal-mtb-practice
I've since revived it 5 or more times.
Michael, I found the PDF of that article/study at:
http://pure-oai.bham.ac.uk/ws/files/28706117/Cumming_et_al_in_press_Developing_imagery_ability_effectively_A_guide_to_Layered_Stimulus_Response_Training.pdf
Griff do you think it is possible that we might not trust our visualization?
Michael comments that his visualization is way better than his ability. Perhaps we don’t believe we have the same level of ability as our visualization?
I wonder if it’s possible that sometimes that is our bodies way of protecting us when we aren’t quite physically up to a task whether we are just tired or don’t have a basic building block for a skill?
Renee,
The research seems to indicate that visualization is only effective when we've successfully performed the skill or one element of the skill at least once.
Or conversely, it's not effective for learning a skill or one element of a skill that we've never actually performed.
So that seems to validate your point about not having "a basic building block for a skill".
It also relates to your point about belief. I know I bunny-hopped 12 inches a few times. But in analyzing my video, I can see that my technique was flawed. So now I've isolated the smaller elements of the skill to work on. I can perform those chunks correctly sometimes but not always. So I'm at the point where visualization can now be of real help. I've got an ability to do all the chunks but not yet able to put them all together.
Michael, I wanted to address the original problems you mentioned:
1) getting a jump nailed after hours of practice, only to have that progress disappear upon a return visit, requiring more hours to get it back
2) finally cleaning an obstacle after sessioning it for 30 minutes and then discovering how difficult it was to repeat the feat.
On your return visit to bike park, you wrote:
"I took breaks today, sometimes to eat, sometimes to just rest, or roll through the pump track. That seemed to help "calm" things a bit."
When you get a chance, revisit my recent post:
Quiz results: How often should you take a break during a 60-minute MTB practice session?
https://mtbpracticelab.substack.com/p/quiz-results-breaks-during-mtb-practice
A) What's your thinking about the breaks you took in light of what I wrote?
B) What's your thinking about what I wrote regarding retrieving from short-term memory vs long-term memory in your earlier practice session at the jump park and your sessioning the trail obstacle?
Hi Griff. I'm curious if you have a suggestion about a set of basic skills that you'd practice consistently, which you ideally always keep tuned up. I tend to jump around with different skills, and am thinking there are probably some basics that are universally valuable, so just keep those tuned. But of course there's a limit to how much a person can squeeze in. So are there two or three or four skills or techniques that you always keep tuned, and that are useful as a baseline for lots of other skills.
Jeff, I consistently practice track stands, skinnies, logover/rockovers/ledges, small bunny hops, and for fun, slow fakies.
Track stands and bunny hops seem to be "useful as a baseline for lots of other skills" as you wrote. The others are helpful for the technical riding on the trails nearest me.
That said, I definitely see that my 'list' could evolve over time. I want to get to the point where I would add other skills to the frequently-praticed list: manuals and pivots, especially, plus wheelies for fun.
So I guess this means I can't really recommend MY LIST but I do endorse the idea of having your OWN LIST.
What might be on your list?
I've done far less than I should have, for some personal reasons. But hope springs eternal....
After I broke a rib and tore a rotator cuff (this has to be a couple of years now) going OTB on one of the early Manual lessons, I have been very hesitant to go back to it. I actually got the crash on video! After many viewings, freeze frame, slo-mo etc, the video revealed the reason for the OTB; One of my arms was straight, the other bent, so when the front wheel came down, it was at an angle. The bike cut right while I did the Newtonian thing and flew forward onto the asphalt....
Since then I have been VERY nervous about wheel lifts. But there is hope. MANY reps of the basic drops technique have taught me to straighten BOTH arms (once or twice, I didn't, and the landing was...exciting. I hope to revisit the RLC manuals module soon, but might do drops first as I aspire to jumps....
This weekend I spent Saturday recovering from the ill effects of a double vaccination, and just did a casual ride on local singletrack on Sunday.
Dave, I've copied/pasted your comment to the original thread and posed a question for you there:
https://mtbpracticelab.substack.com/p/mtb-practice-lab-ama-ask-me-anything-oct16/comment/9730967
Sorry for my delayed answer, Griff! Indeed, I find 'good' problems are the best!
This is it- the "here-and-now mental state" that allows me the ease and flow I so love on the bike.
It takes me out of judgment too!
Thank you. It helps when someone has the words to explain something.
Patricia, I've replied with a "you're welcome" to the original thread at:
https://mtbpracticelab.substack.com/p/mtb-practice-lab-ama-ask-me-anything-oct16/comment/9718543